Most HR teams build a process, then try to get people to use it. Cécile Pompeï does it backward. In this episode of The Team Check-In, host Emre Ok talks with Pompeï, a Chief People Officer with years of experience leading people teams at climate and social-impact organizations, about a line of hers that stuck with him: HR processes exist to protect companies from bad managers, not to police employees.
Cécile explains her "people as a product" approach to building HR, why she tells her team not to fall in love with a process regardless of results, and how she defines high performance differently for every company stage. She also gets specific on what actually makes training stick, including a peer program built to fight the fact that most corporate training has little lasting impact, and closes with her case for doing layoffs early, honest, and fully paid.
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Emre (00:00.486)
good. Yeah, it's the afternoon here as well. It's around 5 30 p.m. What time is it over there?
Cecile (00:07.728)
430.
Emre (00:09.258)
Nice. So it's been a while. I just want to congratulations on the new job and motherhood on the way.
Cecile (00:13.391)
in a few weeks.
Cecile (00:19.504)
Thank you. I don't know if I want to make it that public, but thank you. It's a look at, it's a look at. Not something we should be ashamed of.
Emre (00:24.302)
Nah, nah, we won't, uh, uh, no, no, of course not. I say, uh, uh, are you excited? How are you feeling?
Cecile (00:36.428)
About both, yeah. No, no, both of them are exciting and have big challenges, so it's really good. Obviously, being a woman, the motherhood side is tiring. So, you you have to perform and at the same time, you know, it's a weight for the body, right? And I think, again, I'm lucky I still play beach volleyball at seven months, so let me tell you, I'm OK.
Emre (00:37.815)
Yeah.
Emre (00:43.278)
Mm-hmm.
Emre (00:57.635)
Uh-huh.
Emre (01:02.511)
my god.
Cecile (01:03.684)
Yeah, no, no, I'm a go cycle everywhere and stuff, but still I'm tired, you know, I feel I have less energy than normal. So which makes you sharper. I think, you know, you have to get this done. And I think for this women are really wonder like wonderful.
Emre (01:18.648)
Yeah, that's insane. I still can't play beach volleyball and I've never been pregnant.
Cecile (01:25.968)
Well, I've played for 20 years, so I guess that helps.
Emre (01:28.046)
There you go. There you go. did you do the thing where, because when we did a whole company retreat and everyone flew in from like different sides of the globe, one of our customers success people, said, hi, I'm Emre. Let's go book the beach volleyball area. So we go on to book the beach volleyball area. And as we're walking, she says, Emre, I've been playing volleyball like professionally for years and like,
When I was in college, I played with everyone who was in the national team now. So I'm really good. And I just said, okay, first thing, we're on the same team. Second thing, don't speak of this to anyone until it's like the second set or whatever.
Cecile (02:15.568)
Yeah, it does change something. does change something. mean, just the control in French, really in English, you really say like the ball control does matter. Like, you know where the ball goes. It's a thing. I haven't played professionally because nowadays to play professionally, you have to basically just do this and be above one meter seventy five. But which is the cut. It's not the cut. yeah, this level nowadays, the level is that good. So,
Emre (02:23.735)
Uh-huh.
Emre (02:40.141)
Yeah. Yeah.
Emre (02:45.451)
Yeah, exactly. Athletes these days are insane. I can't even. And crossing that threshold where all the professional athletes are a lot younger than me now is... I don't know. I never got over that once I realized, all these guys that... They're all kids.
Cecile (03:08.976)
Yeah, depending on the sport, think it's even younger. think beach volleyball, they're a bit older, but not anymore even. like, it's true, like to be really good, you have to start so young nowadays. And I think the age of our parents was not like this, but now it's dead. And to be honest, between like 19 and 25, I was in India, was in Russia and Albania for work. therefore, I mean, not that I would have been chosen, this I don't know, but...
That's it, you know, you have to decide as well what you prioritize. So yeah, I guess it's what it is.
Emre (03:42.926)
Yeah, yeah, that is what I love about being a wave surfer, but in Istanbul, Turkey, because there are only a handful of us. So you're automatically one of the best in the country. Yeah.
Cecile (03:56.4)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen this in different countries I've lived in. Definitely in Mexico it was easier, like France has a massive volleyball level. I agree. I agree, I agree.
Emre (04:06.709)
Yeah. Yeah. So, this is just going to be a casual conversation about all the things we touched upon, when we had our previous conversation months ago, but that's perfectly fine. And, like I already have a bunch of questions set out around, you know, the traditional HR learning HR on the job, what it means to be a top performer. So I'm just going to start things off.
by saying, hi everyone, welcome to another episode of the Team Check-In. And with me today, I have Globetrotter, Chief People Officer, but specifically non-traditional HR. And we will get to that. Cecil Pompey. Cecil, hi, welcome to the show.
Cecile (04:57.232)
Thank you, I'm excited to be here.
Emre (05:00.865)
Yeah. And I'm very excited to have you. Now, we had a call. Months ago and a lot changed since then. You started a new role. I went on a couple of weeks break and came back. So equal accomplishments of the thing. But from our conversation, I remember I have this one specific sentence.
that has been in my brain, just etched in my consciousness. And I want to start the show by asking you about that. And I have it written down right here. And I will read it word for word. This is as poetic a sentence as you can get in people and culture. And it is, HR processes exist to protect companies from shit managers. So.
Cecile (06:00.324)
Yeah, I recognize my style in there. Well, generally it's a bit longer. I think it's, there to protect. Well, it's a bit of a longer, has to have context. But I just say, you know, it's important to build process, when you build processes, what's important to do is to make sure. Shit managers. Well, shit is a hard one, right? But like you make sure you protect from.
Emre (06:06.477)
Cecile (06:26.992)
poor managers, managers that not that good and that train yet, but then you let great managers shine. So the sentence is a bit, generally I make it a bit more.
Emre (06:36.403)
Exactly, exactly. That's the right way to put it. And it is very true and it is a huge part of the general sentiment when it comes to how people see HR from the outside. And there are two separate camps. Usually while there are gajillions of opinions, one camp is they're saying, yeah, HR is your friend. And the other is saying, no, HR is here to protect the company from you. And
The answer usually lies just somewhere in between incorporating all of those. So what do you think about that?
Cecile (07:14.928)
Funny because a friend of mine texted me that earlier. One of my answer, I mean, my answer has a few points. The first thing is I hear that a lot of people say I do HR because I love people. I don't think it's what it is. I think you're good at HR when you care about people problems and solving that and putting processes and structures. I think that's quite important.
But at the end of the day, and this is why I think I started in HR late as well, like HR is just another department that solves problems and try to make everyone perform and towards company goals. So that's one, I don't think you have to just like people and I don't think that makes good HR necessarily. If they like it, it's a bonus, but no. Second, think, yeah, it's a lot more about building structure, right?
I think it's what it really is than anything else. yeah, that's my short answer. It's a lot more about this, right?
Emre (08:19.943)
Exactly. Another question I really wanted to ask you in front of all of our listeners, which I'm sure is in the gajillions, is you define yourself as a non-traditional HR consultant. so the question then becomes, how do you define traditional HR? What is the quote unquote
Cecile (08:20.271)
If I.
Cecile (08:26.768)
you
Emre (08:49.591)
traditional approach to HR and why would you say you're opposed to it?
Cecile (08:56.688)
I don't think I'm opposed to it, but I think that comes off tied back to what you were saying before. So to the traditional HR thing, I think there was a current of HR that was just solving problems for the company and executing. I think HR this past few years became much more strategic and much more strategic. It's funny because people ask me, I meet people all the time and very social. So they ask me, oh, cool. So you do recruitment. No, know, HR starts at
What is the people strategy, the talent strategy for the company? So company strategy, then based on this, what do you do for people? Like what kind of people do you need? What kind of performance you need? What kind of culture you need, et cetera, right? So the people strategy informs this. And I think that's quite important. So I think it's interesting. And I answer both of questions at the same time. You asked me what I thought before. I think some people think, I tell my team, we're not the head of the union.
but at the same time, we're not as well there to just like, not care at all. And I think it's in the middle. So traditional HR, think for me was much more executing. They were told what, maybe a bit more told what to do. So like, recruit this, hey, fire this, hey, build the performance And things have changed. So I think there's a few names for what it is. And I think like many HR professionals around me,
we naturally started to work on this new HR that I'll explain in a second and then realized there was a few, like few of us, many of us, I'm sure, actually not few. So there's different names, like people as a product, like I think there's like future HR, I don't know, everyone has a cool name to it, you know how these things work. But basically what it is, is a few things, is like much more strategic HR, which means you have a sit at the table. I just got a job, as you said, I am part of the exec team, I think it's important.
I can wait on decisions. I can decide what's good or not, know, that strategies in place. The second thing, so much more strategic participating, I designed, you know, from designing the orchard, deciding where the people strategy goes to get to our goal, et cetera. The second thing as well, in which I love is we design around people, right? without you design based on what the company objectives are.
Cecile (11:18.82)
but you design as well on who is your client. So that's what we call people as a product. It was inspired by product management in general. And what you want to do is to say, hey, people experience and people in general is a recurring subscription in a company. You know, it's something that as an employee, you buy in every month, right? You decide to stay, you decide to participate. And therefore as HR or people, so people teams because
People is kind of the new name of HR. let's use that. You design around this. Let's give you an idea. Let's give you an example. Like right now I need to recruit and build a new recruitment process where I am. The first step would be to kind of understand who are my clients. Ideal, even ideal clients. So you have the hiring manager, you have the candidate, have participants into this recruitment process. Of course you have the Xcode team if they're involved.
And then you build like candidate profiles for a candidate profile, customer profiles for this, you build designing on this. Right. So what it means is like HR doesn't design processes like this anymore without thinking about it. They really design much more for their clients because there's more than one. And they try to make something that people would be satisfied with and happy to buy into months after months, if that makes sense.
So that's kind of much more new HR. So for example, I'm trying to train my team currently where I just joined and it's like, Hey, you just don't push a process. If people hate it, it doesn't work. Right. So how do we make sure we follow what the company needs, but at the same time we build for people and you match this. So that's, that's kind of the, the, the answer based on question one and two.
Emre (13:10.497)
Yeah, it's something we've discussed at length, both on the show and just in my circles. is sometimes, like, I love your idea of don't push a process on people. And sometimes people fall in love with the traditional practices and processes. They fall in love with the process regardless of the results, right? Regardless of
Cecile (13:36.112)
sure.
Emre (13:38.242)
how their people feel about it, or regardless of what the world around them looks like now. We discussed this with Steve Katigan and Steve mentioned how people are so obsessed with the idea of tenure at a company, Teams that stay together the longest are successful. This is an idea that's been etched in people's brains and this is a concept that they've fallen in love with.
Cecile (13:43.3)
Yeah.
Cecile (13:54.618)
So true.
Emre (14:07.507)
over the years and it doesn't matter if that idea is not applicable in today's world. No, that is the way to go about it because that is what I've seen. That is what my boss's boss has seen. So you just fall in love with these processes and don't drop them regardless of what happens. So I guess my follow-up question would that be how do you break down those walls and how do you
convince people to change these long embedded and clunky processes.
Cecile (14:44.58)
There's a few things into what you said. The first thing is don't fall in love with the process. I've heard a few people speaking about this and it's a months ago and I was like, it's so true. As an HR, you geek about the process, like, can I find the best process, et cetera? And it's important to geek about the process, but people as well. And that comes from the fact that I think before, if I try to oversimplify, probably before companies were like, you know, people will need a job. I have the dominant hand here.
And I think that changed and they understand, no, there's a talent war now. I need as well for people to buy in and to want to come. And I'm really sorry, but just having a job won't be enough. And this is really a message I have. So falling in love in the process is a really tough one because you start geeking out. You want the best, you know, right now we just built a performance review and I told my team it's too complex. Build V1 and they're like, no, but it's so good. I'm like V1, like version one. So these things are hard when you're HR because you want to build a cool process.
Second thing comes back to the question before you need to sit at the table and more than a sit at the table, you need to be given a voice because I'm thinking a lot about this, but like if there's two types of CEOs, not CEOs that recruit you because they think they want this and CEOs that recruit because they want this. And, and if it's not organization that already does it, because there's quite a few right now, I think in the startup world, at least for me, startup and climate, most companies got that now.
But if you have to change things a bit, you need to be heard. So, so I think you change and I don't know how it is in big companies. think it depends again, who has the seat at the table and who is capable of, of showing that matters. Data helps you nowadays. No, like I guess if you work for a big bank or big consulting, people are leaving. They don't really, they're not staying anymore. So guess they have, they're a bit forced to change, right? But this is still there. So I think this is it. And for example,
For me, when I have a seat at the table, again, I've seen the two CEOs, not the CEO that won the change and the CEO that pretended won the change and everything in the middle. Right. So it depends. I don't think it actually only depends on how good you are. think how good you are at spreading the message, having data and showing results. But as well, you know, if people don't want that, then it's okay. It's just not the right place for you. So my advice for other HR and people is just find the companies where it's true.
Cecile (17:09.88)
as simple as this, but yeah, but I think it's a very good comment. Like don't fall in love with the process.
Emre (17:15.199)
Yeah. And like you said, most of my job is geeking out about the process because when I'm not hosting this podcast, I work for Teamflect, an HR software. And we take pride in our performance reviews, right? We have amazing performance review templates. You can integrate 360 degree feedback in them, goals, competencies, all of it. You can automate it again.
Cecile (17:30.34)
Yeah.
us.
Emre (17:43.384)
Processed loving it. I love geeking out about it and I can't geek out about it forever but at the end of the day it's just about the people and as long as Yeah, yeah and unless you make it yeah
Cecile (17:54.442)
And if they don't use it, yeah, that's it. Yeah, it's quite disheartening, you know, when you build it and people like, nah, and you're like, what do mean?
Emre (18:07.341)
And I often do these customer success stories with people using our tool. And in most of those stories, I realize when I'm talking to these global HR directors from all sorts of companies, I like the fact that they're happy with our tool, but our software is 40 % of their success.
tops and 60 % is, hey, it's them using it and getting people excited about the process. Because if you can't get them excited or passionate, it doesn't matter which software you're using or which fancy tools you're embedding. It doesn't matter.
Cecile (18:54.66)
Which is an interesting one because I think for performance review, like, you know, there's all talks, right? Shall we have, shall we not have? I'm still in favor that we have because I do see there's a need for people to hear what they need to do and to hear how they're doing. Everyone needs this, et cetera. Now the question is actually, think as HR, you think, you think a lot about, I need to build something so we register the performance. We have tracking, et cetera. But really the most important part.
Emre (19:00.429)
Mm-hmm.
Cecile (19:25.048)
What I see is like people just want feedback and that, you know, that that's the base and everything. anyway, I just think it's fascinating because it's really a thing that chart pushes more process. In reality, people really want feedback. That's not a process easy to activate and, and, everything in the middle. So this is something where exactly it's not easy to build.
Emre (19:42.989)
Mm-hmm.
Emre (19:48.726)
So I guess the next question for that would be, and let's play a little devil's avocado, right? So what would you say would be the case against performance appraisals? What would you say? Like, what is the argument for performance reviews obsolete? Let's not have them anymore.
Cecile (20:13.872)
I'm not a big fan, so it's harder for me. what I hear is, I mean, I think performance review is necessary, but I've read enough people and what they say. think against it would be that it's too heavy. It's not really doing the job, which is providing the conversation and that's it. The tie with compensation is complicated.
Emre (20:21.867)
Yeah.
Cecile (20:38.064)
It's hard to link performance, the skills you need to develop, how much you should be paid, so you need to decouple this or not. Everyone, I think in other cases, everyone does it very differently. And so to have a software for this is complicated because you have, you know, everyone does it very differently. So I think that's what I hear is the biggest pushback. That's basically it's not flexible enough. And
Emre (20:38.093)
Mm-hmm.
Cecile (21:07.214)
I guess the most important thing, and I repeat what I just said is like, you want managers that set goals and give feedback and help their team to grow. That's the, that's the bottom line. And so what does it look like on a software? It's complicated, but HR and company have other needs. You need to be able to track if you need to terminate someone at some point. So this is where I think it's conflicting, a lot. it's not even, that's what I hear against.
Cecile (21:39.78)
I'm personally in favour, so...
Emre (21:40.226)
I, yeah, yeah, yeah. So am I, but I think most of the problem stemming around performance reviews and appraisals is this notion of high performance. How does each organization define high performance is, you know, just let's buckle down, grind and get my numbers up mentality. Is that high performance or?
Cecile (21:57.584)
Thanks
Yeah.
Emre (22:10.067)
some employees who contribute in ways that maybe do not translate very easily to numerical values. Will they be considered low performance? I think that is where most of the controversy or the discussion around performance appraisal stems. So the question is just how does an organization defy positive or good performance?
Cecile (22:23.152)
Yes.
Emre (22:37.933)
Should it just be about getting numbers high?
Cecile (22:40.79)
No, that's a very good question. think like everything in HR, you start at the company. So you start a company and company now with the people it has, with the culture it has. And this is why it's important to define all of this. So the first thing on performance is what is high performance for us right now? That's super important. So what does it mean? And there are lots of versions of this. then based on this, I think...
What I see a lot is like, everyone say, I want eight players, da da. And you're like, but what does it mean exactly? Everyone want eight players. Like, what does it mean? You know, it's a very different game based on where you are, when you are. Is it like someone, like, I think what mostly they mean is they want me in the team. That's what people define as high performance. So there's a lot of bias entering this topic too. So for me, it's really trying to understand. So I do a few things. The first thing is I really define.
Emre (23:28.557)
Mm-hmm.
Cecile (23:39.408)
What are people that thrive here? That's one, and that's maybe a bit more culture. So if you work long hours, it's someone that would be able to do this without being burnt out. If you obsess about details, depending on your sector, sometimes you have to be, like right now there's a lot of scientists. Scientists is a very different breed. So what does it mean, et cetera. So that's one. Really defining who thrives, which is more culture than anything. Then the second thing that you need to have
is as well KPIs and defining how you set that up. And that in the culture of defining how performance is making sure KPIs or KRs are taken seriously, are reviewed frequently. I mean, you can't define performance without this and you need to lower the bias. So having like a checkpoint, I think is quite important. But really I struggle with this idea of like, how we all want high performance because they don't even fight for the same candidates, right? So.
And then the person, think something that is quite interesting for me, and there's no perfect answer is you can have a person that super thrives somewhere. And in a similar organization, even at the same size and same, but just different people doesn't thrive at all. Is it because it's not a high performer or not, but performance is everything. It's like, how do you work with the tenure, the sector, the type of client, the size of client, but as well, the culture and the environment.
So in general, do as well in my culture interview, I do ask, have defined my culture and I do ask them, Hey, how do you, and I ask around my culture. So it's different depending on the job. Right? So yeah, high performance is a funny one because it's like this buzzword of like everyone's high performance, but until you precise, you're not doing anything. If you ask me.
Emre (25:27.403)
Yeah, exactly. And I think how people affect the performance of others around them, that is very, that is not easy to measure. That is not very easy to put to numbers, but is imperative to like an organization's success.
Cecile (25:40.174)
Yeah.
Cecile (25:45.9)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. And another thing, just to say another thing I do as well as I define core skills that everyone should have at the company. I think it's a nice way to define as well as like performance culture or who we are. And so for example, this year, when I was a fractional, I worked a lot with like very much smaller startups, like 20 to 70 people. And so I really looked at the size of company and say, okay, what are core skills that we all need to have right now?
One that I find a lot in this phase is like being a builder. So you need to be someone that brings structure to chaos. You know, everyone owns this to be like super autonomous because in this phase, you know, it's not very structured to be super proactive. So there's a few skills. Then it was a bit different. Like some companies are like, Hey, to have courage. Some other startups were like, no, for us is to be nice. But, but you define like five or six core skills. And that really helps you as well defining.
And measuring people on core skills that everyone should have, which by the way, could be English as well. All that core skills could be like this.
Emre (26:52.621)
So I've heard that the half-life of a skill in today's world right now is four to five years, right? Because a new skill might be very prominent, very important, and everyone might be looking for it. And after like four years, oh, we don't need that. That's not top priority anymore, right? I think one of the top skills of 2023, like...
pointed out by some high magazine, just became obsolete in 2025, which was like developing good AI prompts. It just quick, just things are catching up so fast. So when you're building these skill libraries or competency frameworks around these roles, how do you make sure that the core skills you define stay future-proof?
Cecile (27:49.776)
Well, the simple answer is that you choose skills that are like core, no? So for example, to be a good learner. As simple as this, to be a good learner, to be adapt. Like I really like in startups, really want core skills. I always have is adaptation. You need to kind of adapt fast and be okay with it. So I think you define core skills that work around this. The second answer is as well a lot on well.
It goes again, like together, but it is a lot on the soft skills, right? So like, you able to collaborate? Are you able to, to be managed? Are you able to lead on another side? So I think you work around this. Now on really concrete functional skills. So like hard skills, not that I love this hard and soft, but just to use something people can relate to. It's an interesting one because what I try to do in startup is.
sit and be like, okay, what do we need at skills in a year, year and a half from now? So either I upgrade my team or I already know I will look for that. So AI is a very good one. And like you said, even in AI, within AI, there's so many sub skills that need to be there, right? Like writing a good prompt right now is done. you know, it's already the next thing. And that becomes tricky when everything goes so fast. And this, agree.
Emre (29:07.756)
Mm-hmm.
Cecile (29:15.748)
But again, maybe you know that if people have the right background, they'll be able to catch it a bit faster. So that's kind of what you're trying to go after. Now on hard skills, depending on what you do, some skills are very relevant long-term. I don't know, like if I say the scientists that work in climatology, will be much more able than me to understand climate hazards in five years.
Emre (29:38.711)
Mm-hmm.
Cecile (29:44.24)
you work around this, but I like this idea of planning a year in advance and trying to prep around this and to focus a lot on adaptability, the capacity of learning, the capacity of collaborating, open-minded about feedback. know, open, like in general, you want positive attitude, like people that complain all day, it doesn't work. So locus of control thing. So yeah, I think that's my basic answer on this very relevant problem.
Emre (30:12.427)
No, I think that is a very good answer because it's getting harder to anticipate the future and the needs that will arise with the future. Anticipating today five years ago is easier than anticipating five years from now from today. It's getting like, it's exponentially getting harder to anticipate the future and what it will bring.
Cecile (30:41.168)
Because it goes faster, agree with you, but at the same time, I don't know, I'm questioning this. When there was the first tech companies, probably people had no idea, right? So I met one of the girls I play volleyball with to come back to volleyball. She's a seamstress, no, she's a sewist, she's couture.
Emre (30:54.519)
Mm-hmm.
Emre (31:04.298)
Uh-huh.
Cecile (31:08.014)
And for her, example, she never saw that coming and everything is digital right now. could like, you know, like some things change as well. And so I don't know if it's changed so much, but yet now it goes fast. It goes very fast.
Emre (31:21.025)
Yeah, but what I'm trying to get to is just being a good person to work with and being able to learn new skills fast, being able to pick up new skills as they arise in prominence and making the lives of those around you easier by being positive, supportive, and just, again, being nice to be around. That is one thing that will
never go out of fashion, no matter which age of which key skill, you know, we arrive into.
Cecile (31:58.318)
Yeah. And that I see from the other side as well. So everyone always wants training. The reality I have really like a torn heart on training because the reality is training is only efficient if you really want to learn, which means think about training that company give all the time. There's only, think I was reading, I doesn't matter the number, but 10, 15 % is actually impactful and it's the same. So the quality should be.
keen on learning, keen on being trained because then you improve this. Cause just providing training for a 15 % impact is not that great, right? So this is from a company point of view that you're going to have to train massively all the time because all these things, you know, it's expensive to train. It's not always something you will have in house because as you said, the skills are so new that it's not necessary that someone in the company will be able to do it. So this is the toughest side because you have to go outside to learn. That's more expensive.
then you want people that are open-minded and open-minded about learning because it's already expensive.
Emre (33:00.119)
That is so true and trainings can quite easily turn into a compliance exercise for people in culture departments. Right? Saying, how many, like at the end of the year, it's very easy to say, look, we completed this, this, this, this, this, this, this many trainings, you know, aiming for this, this, this, this, and this. like the question then becomes, you know, how an improv you go, yes, and?
Cecile (33:21.401)
True.
Emre (33:29.581)
Yeah, so, what happened? How do you make sure...
Cecile (33:34.256)
How you measure change? How do measure it worked? Super hard.
Emre (33:38.446)
Yeah. the learning and development aspect in workplaces, especially these external training programs, there is something broken about our core understanding of it, how people come in, know, our employees took these, these, these seminars. So then the question would be, how do you make that stick? Because I do not question the value of the actual training itself.
I'm sure at some point in the training, some valuable things were said and some valuable lessons were passed across. But how do you make sure once that training person who you've just said goodbye to with a nice amount of money, once they leave, how do you make sure that training stays?
Cecile (34:30.8)
Or even ones that stay. You want them to use them once they stay? well, you mean the trainer leaves.
Emre (34:37.421)
Yeah, once the trainer leaves, how do you make sure the lessons and the learnings stick and how just people don't go back to immediately the way things were.
Cecile (34:49.572)
but people go back. So I think the first thing is fundamentally understanding how learning works. And this is why like having real learning professional, like real learning and development professional matters. So that's my short answer. What does it mean? It means that, and I'm not a professional, I hire good people on this. This thing means that when you hire someone to do the learning and development, they...
cater for the way people learn. So examples, it's not a once off. Second, some ideas I've implemented along the years, but again, I would rather ask always the new techniques because it was stuff, making sure skills are being repeated. I did a peer program. So after the course, they still have things where they practice. We did this in my previous organization at the executive level where meeting once a month to discuss as well and repeat learnings and say,
Have you practiced your feedback that, so you need this peer groups as well. Another way could be as well to provide different support for different types of learning. So you really understand how people learn. But fundamentally it doesn't stop. That's the thing. It cannot be a once-off. It cannot. Another thing you should measure it in performance review, maybe for example, like another thing is like what I do right now is if you get a training that you have to train other people on it because we know
that teaching is the best way of learning. So again, my short answer is you really understand how people learn and you have professionals for this and don't pretend to be professional. This is funny, right? I get people that know and I say, hey, advise me, techniques change all the time. You know, like my cousin, one of them is a teacher. She tells me all the time they get trained on this, they get trained how to learn. And she was explaining something and I'm like, great, you know, this is what we need ultimately. So this is how.
Emre (36:28.865)
Yeah, I-
Cecile (36:46.244)
We do, and I was at a diversity and inclusion conference last week. Another thing as well is like, you need to train for very different types of brains. And that's, you know, that's great.
Emre (36:56.237)
That is very true. And I do want to get to the diversity and inclusion part because that is something very topical and very interesting to me right now. But the thing about training programs is that I just want to say is you can give, you can hire the best leadership or presentation skills or whatever consultant and then they can come and give your employees the best possible...
Cecile (37:08.048)
Thanks.
Emre (37:23.911)
a lecture or workshop on leadership in the workplace, whatever. But if they go back to their day-to-day life, right after their training, just back into the grind of their work, and they don't have any form of opportunity to actually practice those new skills they picked up, I attended the seminar, I got my certificate, all right, back to my job that already took all my time, nine to five, then...
Cecile (37:52.432)
appreciate
Emre (37:53.56)
Yeah, it's, they will have one or two nice quotes to share in dinner parties tops. Like that's what your training program will boil down to. And yeah, yeah, exactly.
Cecile (38:01.104)
100%.
Cecile (38:06.384)
The week they remember. Absolutely. The week they remember. And that's hard because you know what's hard from an HR point of view is that it does cost a lot to have a program that is recurring and doesn't stop. And so that's why you always want to have as many skills possible in like internally to companies. So then you can train people and have people that take the relay and build a culture around it, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. I agree. A hundred percent.
Emre (38:34.221)
Yeah, you mentioned, I can't believe in this day and age because we kind of set foot in the diversity, equity and inclusion pool. And once we step there, I can't stop myself. I cannot believe that in this day and age, in 2025, that the concept of diversity, equity and inclusion, all three of those letters have become controversial, have become something that people can say,
I am strictly against it. I can't believe that, you know, the world of work has evolved into that. And yeah, can I get some comments? I, cause I'm at the end of my rope.
Cecile (39:17.264)
No, no, yeah. mean, I'm like, you know, and imagine I work in social environmental impact. So hopefully, so I guess in my, in my eco chamber and my bubble, people still care. And that's not going to change. I was asking the specialist last week and what they say is like, you know, it's political right now because of what's happening in the U S but, because actually in the world in general, like society is getting really complicated right now. But.
Emre (39:25.549)
Mm-hmm.
Emre (39:31.853)
Mm-hmm.
Cecile (39:48.152)
We don't call it DEI anymore, but we call it inclusion program. you know, so it's still there. It's still important. That's the first thing. The second thing is as well, the good thing about DEI from a purely this conversation that you just had, this topic is that it makes business sense. hopefully, hopefully that is heard enough by now that people still care. I hope I comment it from a different perspective, but.
Emre (40:03.181)
Mm-hmm.
Emre (40:07.373)
Mm-hmm.
Cecile (40:17.71)
But I think it was always something people were against. I think at the end of the day, it is hard to work with people that are different than you. And I understand this. It is hard. So you're like, they're not good. If you've been ever in a relationship in a family or in a company, you know. Basically, you're frustrated. well, yeah, you're not like me. We have this at home all the time with my partner. It's the discussion. I think.
Emre (40:39.725)
You
Cecile (40:45.05)
I agree with you, it's disheartening what's happening in the world. We'll agree, think, but I don't think it's coming out just yet. I think it's going to be hidden for sure. I think there's going to be hopefully places that by giving it up, won't have the people recurring. Remember? Like you pay and people will be like, no way in hell. I think there was a few examples in the US about this, about the, you know, so I think that's what's happening.
Emre (40:47.895)
Mm-hmm.
Emre (40:51.949)
Mm-hmm.
Emre (41:02.507)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Cecile (41:15.96)
And then we'll see, right? We could get into more troubled times coming up. I hope not, but I don't believe it's that.
Emre (41:17.675)
Yeah. Exactly. It is very hard. Sometimes it can be hard to be optimistic about the way that whole discussion is going. But again, seeing the actual professionals in the world of people and culture who are day in and day out saying, no, these are important.
That does give that just little bit of positivity that we all need. But the reason I kind of wanted to talk about DE &I and just bring up like you brought, you talked about the US side of things is right now, very sadly, a huge part of the conversation when it comes to efficiency or productivity is
letting people go from work. And we've discussed this with, you know, other podcast episodes in the U S very recently, we've just witnessed a case study on how to not, how to just not fire people. Right. We just absolutely witnessed the worst way someone can let people go from the organization, from just any form of organization.
mass layoffs and layoffs in the most undignified possible ways, especially in, you know, in government areas, we're saying, yeah, we're cutting this program, we're letting you go by, they leave, you talk, you bad mouth them for a very long time. they were bureaucrats mooching off of our government. sorry, those were essential services. We do want you back. So we've been seeing just the absolute worst of the worst scenarios of
how to not lay people off. So what I want to bring up is, is there a good way? Is there the right way of letting someone go?
Cecile (43:22.768)
Yeah.
Cecile (43:27.466)
This is something I truly believe in, say to my team.
So it matters for two reasons. I think I have a conflicting thing. I think on the one hand, people have a very short memory and care more about what shines and therefore they would go back to these organizations and do you want to be them? That's a very personal decision. If you accept that I treat you like this and go back, that's your decision. But I think ultimately I strongly believe I'm someone that is very social and I truly believe that
your reputation is everything. And so if you always treat people right in every sector of your life, like in the street and the everything, I think it does come back. that, and I believe in this at work. So there is a really good way to fire people. And I think hopefully I'm not the only one, but this is something I really, I don't know if obsessed, but I really think about, I think treat people as human beings. So it's okay. mean,
It is difficult. have to terminate people sometimes. And actually I prefer doing it earlier rather than later, because what I see is like, it doesn't work anymore. The manager gets frustrated, but it's generally non-confrontational or wants to wait. Then the person feels it really gets depressed or sad, and then they all hate each other. So that's why I like to arrive early on in the process saying, Hey, it sucks, but let's try to find a way to do this right. So that's important.
Earlier rather than later, not too early, right? But earlier rather than later. I do believe in this, like, how you're slow, fire, fast, just to make sure that they don't hate you. The second thing, and that's a thing of life, you need to be honest and you need to be courageous. And that means telling the truth. Don't, if you treat people like stupid, like of course, you know, so by being courageous and saying the truth and owning your shit, saying the company needs this.
Cecile (45:24.77)
And right now you're not able to provide this. And I always tell them when I have to do it myself, like, it is not a reflection how good or bad you are. Everyone fits in an environment. Maybe it's not you right now here. And I really found if you're honest, if you're courageous, if you don't pretend, if you don't lie, do not lie. Do not say, well, actually this day you did this.
If you really do things properly, I've had people that I had to terminate that I'm still in touch with and in good terms. And therefore my conclusion is that if you treat people well, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, people that haven't been fired yet have the arrogance of thinking there above. There's no top performer everywhere. We will all get fired somewhere because you cannot fit everywhere in life. I'm sorry. And the stronger your personality, the least likely it's going to happen. So that's a fact of life.
Um, so be honest and, this, um, what I do as HR, like people is I'm after, so I build guides and I, I'm after the life of the managers at every level to make sure this happens. Um, and I am there to make sure we're honest and we tell the truth and we do it right. Because that's maybe the last point, right? Do it right. Pay what you have to pay and do what you have to.
Emre (46:46.293)
Yeah. And that is, that is, I think that at the end of the day, that's the most important aspect of it, because a lot of the times the discussion in people and culture, when it, regardless of what the topic is, it can be letting, laying people off. can be employee engagement, whatever the case is. It can, people can focus on the
Let's just say the poofy side thing, side aspects, right? When you're laying people off, people can say, know, honesty is important. Doing this is important. Exit interviews, gathering data, feedback is important. Do you know what the most important thing is? Actually doing it in a dignified way with fair compensation. Like, because if they are not dignified at the end of this, if they are not compensated fairly for their time,
They're not gonna care about the exit interview. They're not gonna care about how honest... Yeah.
Cecile (47:47.812)
Well, then treat them as you're being. I've seen cases where you've given them money, but you treated them badly. I think you need... Just do it right. Be honest, tell the truth, and pay what you have to pay and be fair.
Emre (47:54.261)
Yeah, that's very true.
Emre (48:01.581)
Mm hmm. Yeah. yeah, and just, yeah, exactly. That's just the right way to go about these things. So what are some common pitfalls, just like the most common mistakes organizations are making when they're letting people go?
Cecile (48:25.314)
I don't know, hopefully I don't always work for these organizations, but no, like, mean, you mentioned a few, I think, and what does it mean? What are the pitfalls? Because honestly, I was like, as like we talked about, I was disheartened to see people coming back to these companies or still, you know, as mentioned them, know, like Meta did Massive Leos in a pretty bad way, Google as well. People still like dream of working for them. So.
Emre (48:38.189)
Mm-hmm.
Emre (48:46.412)
Mm-hmm.
Cecile (48:54.7)
Is it really there was a mistake? I don't know. Who are we to say? What I know is what I want. No, like, so again, start at the culture. What is the company culture you want? if you want to have people that are motivated, the best people in the field that will be engaged and care deeply about the company and not only the paycheck, then, then I can tell you the pitfalls. And in this case, I think the pitfalls is maybe more, and that's a management problem, forgetting.
it's their management or society problem. Like the person in front of you matters just as much as human treat them as a human. You mentioned dignity. think it's very right. So it's much more, what do you define as a pitfall for whom? I think that's a very important question because really blew my mind that people came back to these companies. And I think that's a pitfall we see as well that we shouldn't forget. And in the startup culture, there's a lot of like,
You should die for the company. Well, let's not forget that people need jobs. And right now the market is complicated. And if they are with you because they need a job, sometimes, you know, I work in climate, say, well, if someone, what I want is the appitance and like the interest, and then I'll brainwash them on climate, like how important it is. But at the end of the day, if people need a job, it's okay. Then it's your job as well to make them super into what you do. Right? Of course you try and find the people that would be there, but
Emre (50:11.447)
Mm-hmm.
Cecile (50:22.936)
Let's not forget we have human beings and it's, you know, like not everyone can leave, not everyone can do all of these things. it's, it's maybe I know I answered on the side.
Emre (50:34.231)
Completely. Yeah. No, no, no. That's, there's because no, but sometimes there's no straight answer. And I think over the years we've experienced a lot of romanticizing of big tech, romanticizing of these massive companies. mean, it doesn't help when you're Google and you,
Cecile (50:49.616)
Well, thank you.
Emre (51:00.129)
Commission an entire Owen Wilson and Vince Vaughn movie about how awesome working at your company is People have romanticized working for these big tech companies like Metta like Google like Twitter or X or whatever the name is by the end of by the time this podcast is released and Slowly, but surely now people are getting an insight into This is what it's like
This is what working for these quote unquote geniuses and these quote unquote giants is actually like. And turns out this is not the pinnacle of work. This is not the pinnacle of finding, you know, just a human being's career.
Cecile (51:49.974)
Everyone has a spot. You know, I mean, I read this morning that the startups now that are going to work seven days per week because they want to make a difference. If it's the place for you, go for it.
Emre (51:52.031)
I
Emre (52:04.001)
I guess, I guess if that's...
Cecile (52:06.192)
I think we Europeans as well. I mean, I count you in, no? Like we Europeans as well. think in the US is a different, if I super summarize, it's okay. I think everyone can find a place that works for them. Everyone has different drivers. If your driver is to work 24 seven because it's your thing and that will make you happy, then be my guest. If you don't care, like if you want the top salary and you don't care about what they do, I'm really sorry. It's the same. Be my guest. If you accept or nothing.
Emre (52:10.253)
Mm-hmm.
Cecile (52:35.716)
Whatever, find the place that is right for you.
Emre (52:39.127)
That is, that's perfect. And I completely relate to that because I always say this in the show. This is the internet, right? You cannot have a middle of the ground opinion. Something either has to be the best of the best or the absolute worst of the worst. And people cannot say on the internet, you know, it works for some people and it works for doesn't know you have to pick a side and you have to choose an absolute. And I completely understand you and.
I'll say this, a couple of years back, I was told, hey, Amra, you you talk a lot about work and just people in culture and in playing games. So I want you to give a workshop on work-life balance and how people should find their work-life balance. Just talk and tell people how to find the right work-life balance. And I got so self-conscious about it because I said, I don't know what works best for these people.
Cecile (53:38.158)
I'm gonna keep going.
Emre (53:39.513)
I gave, because I had time limits and had timeframes and it had to be a certain length, I gave a huge workshop that eventually boiled down to, I mean, whatever works for you, guess, whoever, whoever am I.
Cecile (53:52.08)
You can say that people should know what works for them. And I think people are quite confused. So I think what that would be as a workshop is giving them confidence that whatever they feel is right for them works. I think, don't know which coach, famous coach says this, he said people, I think it's Tony Robbins, whatever. He says people think they know what they want, but they have no idea.
Emre (53:56.247)
Yeah, exactly.
Cecile (54:17.912)
And this is a big lesson in HR. People have no idea about what they want. Me included, you included everyone. So identifying what generally makes you happy and not only shines on the paper is definitely, you know, and it's okay. Like then it's just being able to embrace this. So for example, I see lots now I'm in this age, everyone is a young parent. It really makes you happy to go home at 5 PM and be with your family. Embrace that. And it's difficult because first you have to be, no, will still want to be this person.
Emre (54:37.015)
Mm-hmm.
Emre (54:44.811)
Yeah.
Cecile (54:47.468)
I praise that. yeah, the workshop definitely, I understand. mean, would be help people identify and help people have confidence that is the right place for them.
Emre (54:57.621)
Yeah, exactly. yeah, Cecil, we're approaching the hour mark quickly. So and I know that you are a very busy person. what I will say is, where just thank you so much for coming on this show. And the question is, where can people find you?
Cecile (55:11.76)
and
Cecile (55:19.79)
No,
Cecile (55:23.568)
Well, I think the best is LinkedIn. Please, if you add me, write a message. get like, as an HR, honestly, everyone knows, but you get 20 ads on every day and you, I cannot accept everyone because basically it's to sell me stuff and it's too much. Like they just write and write and write and you're like, please not. And they write more. So write a message saying where you heard and what you're looking for, which is fine. I'll add people as long as they don't.
Emre (55:36.813)
Uh-huh.
Cecile (55:53.104)
try to sell me stuff all day.
Emre (55:56.621)
That's perfect. And now I will try to sell you some stuff because if you're listening to us on iTunes, Spotify, wherever you're on podcasts, leave us a like, subscribe. It really helps the show out. And if you're looking for a performance management solution in the Microsoft Teams ecosystem, you cannot go wrong with the highest rated one, Teamflect. You can try it for free by clicking the link in the description. This has been the team check-in. Cecil, thank you so much for coming on the show. We'll see you on the next one. Bye-bye. All right, that's an episode.
Cecile (56:19.92)
Thank you.
Ciao.
Emre (56:26.316)
Alright, I'll stop
Cecile (56:26.788)
Thanks
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